No--he himself. How does he bear it? MRS. BORKMAN. [Scornfully.] Do you think I ever ask about that? ELLA RENTHEIM. Ask? Surely you do not require to ask---- MRS. BORKMAN. [Looks at her in surprise.] You don't suppose I ever have anything to do with him? That I ever meet him? That I see anything of him? ELLA RENTHEIM. Not even that! MRS. BORKMAN. [As before.] The man was in gaol, in gaol for five years! [Covers her face with her hands.] Oh, the crushing shame of it! [With increased vehemence.] And then to think of all that the name of John Gabriel Borkman used to mean! No, no, no--I can never see him again! Never! ELLA RENTHEIM. [Looks at her for a while.] You have a hard heart, Gunhild. MRS. BORKMAN. Towards him, yes. ELLA RENTHEIM. After all, he is your husband. MRS. BORKMAN. Did he not say in court that it was I who began his ruin? That I spent money so recklessly? ELLA RENTHEIM. [Tentatively.] But is there not some truth in that? MRS. BORKMAN. Why, it was he himself that made me do it! He insisted on our living in such an absurdly lavish style---- ELLA RENTHEIM. Yes, I know. But that is just where you should have restrained him; and apparently you didn't. MRS. BORKMAN. How was I to know that it was not his own money he gave me to squander? And that he himself used to squander, too--ten times more than I did!